DUST Search - The proper way to balance tank vs AV

Chances Ghost wrote:

alot of angry discussion has been going around about tank vs AV balance and alot of flame wars have been started as a result.

Balance

the core of it seems to stem from everyones definition of "Balance"

they try to use metrics like 1v1, and justify things with ISK cost or SP cost or other factors that really dont belong in the discussion.

let me explain something about balance in a video game, or any game for that matter.

something is balanced when it creates the type of gameplay you want to see in the game. thats it, thats all there is to it.
so something that completly dominates absolutly everything would be perfectly balanced in a game where that was the intended result.

imbalance is when gameplay isnt happening how you want it to and its creating circumstances that invalidate other areas of the game.

in terms of tank vs AV in Dust 514 we have to ask ourselves what we cant tank gameplay to be like and how do we get there.

The gameplay we want to see?

Naturally this means that any discussion about balancing these two things HAS to include discussion about what you want tank VS AV gameplay to look like and how you want that to interact with Infantry VS Infantry gameplay and every other interaction.

this isnt happening in any tank VS AV disscussion on the forum so lets bring it here

well what DO we want it to look like

well its a givin that we want vehicles to have a place in the game we want them to have a reason to be on the field and we want them to be useful.

currently they dont, infantry hold ALL the power and it renders tanks without a role. infantry are better at killing other infantry, and infantry are better at killing tanks, with a few exceptions.

the only advantage to a tank is that it takes specific AV weaponry to do damage to you making it easyer for you to engage infantry while remaining safe from their fire.

The Current Problem

the current problem is the AV dominance is in the hands of infantry, wich means infantry are more effective at the anti tank role than tanks are.

this creates a situation where tanks are in a role where they are slightly more effective against infantry in exchange for infantry being able to wipe them off the face of the each on a whim.

accurate problems mentioned in thread
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1216479#post1216479

how can we fix this?

that depends on what kind of gameplay you want to see?

currently theres no reason in competitive play to bring out a tank, it serves no function in any battleplans other than you really want to use one.

IF we want to see vehicle combat then obviously we need to change some things.

one way to do this would be to make tanks better at taking out tanks then infantry are.

this would change it so that the best way to take out a tank would be to use another tank, without a tank you would have to group up a number of infantry and come at the tank in numbers to take it out

this is what most tankers refer to when they say you shouldnt be able to solo a tank as infantry

they arnt trying to make themselves invulnerable, they are just trying to make it so that they fight tanks for vehicle dominance while not rendering infantry AV obsolete.

this change would make infantry AV an AV support role, working WITH the tanks to take out other tanks rather then replacing them as they currently do. this would also change it so that tanks would carry around gunner specfed into AV to give them an edge in tank VS tank wars, creating tank orented squad gameplay rather then the solo warrior gameplay we see now.

AVers seem to think tankers want to nerf them so that they become invincable, and thats not true, they want to nerf you so that they have a place in the game, and most importantly they want to play with you, be in squads with you, and co-operate with you instead of you not needing tanks at all.

Closing

In short tankers who argue for nerfs to av are doing it to create a place for tanks int he game, they are currently replaced by a single infantry wielding AV and its creating boring/ stale/ and unengaging gameplay.

what tankers want is a role int he game, and most importantly they want a reason to exsist, as currently they roll in tanks because they want to rather then it being viable.

TLDR - tankers just want to love AV players and squad with them so stop hating them

before posting answer 2 questions

1:what kind of tank/av/infantry gameplay do you want to see
1:one suggestion on how to achieve that vision of balance

invisable swarm footage for the curious skip to 5:50 and watch for left side impact, no trail, no explosive effect just impact physics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HwiIU6rJCk

if you watch a any vehicle youtube footage with invisable swarms in mind you can spot them everywhere.


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Surt gods end Demon Ronin 854	Posted - 2013.08.24 19:56:00 - [1] - Quote Chances Ghost wrote: alot of angry discussion has been going around about tank vs AV balance and alot of flame wars have been started as a result. Balance the core of it seems to stem from everyones definition of "Balance" they try to use metrics like 1v1, and justify things with ISK cost or SP cost or other factors that really dont belong in the discussion. let me explain something about balance in a video game, or any game for that matter. something is balanced when it creates the type of gameplay you want to see in the game. thats it, thats all there is to it. so something that completly dominates absolutly everything would be perfectly balanced in a game where that was the intended result. imbalance is when gameplay isnt happening how you want it to and its creating circumstances that invalidate other areas of the game. in terms of tank vs AV in Dust 514 we have to ask ourselves what we cant tank gameplay to be like and how do we get there. The gameplay we want to see? Naturally this means that any discussion about balancing these two things HAS to include discussion about what you want tank VS AV gameplay to look like and how you want that to interact with Infantry VS Infantry gameplay and every other interaction. this isnt happening in any tank VS AV disscussion on the forum so lets bring it here well what DO we want it to look like well its a givin that we want vehicles to have a place in the game we want them to have a reason to be on the field and we want them to be useful. currently they dont, infantry hold ALL the power and it renders tanks without a role. infantry are better at killing other infantry, and infantry are better at killing tanks, with a few exceptions. the only advantage to a tank is that it takes specific AV weaponry to do damage to you making it easyer for you to engage infantry while remaining safe from their fire. The Current Problem the current problem is the AV dominance is in the hands of infantry, wich means infantry are more effective at the anti tank role than tanks are. this creates a situation where tanks are in a role where they are slightly more effective against infantry in exchange for infantry being able to wipe them off the face of the each on a whim. accurate problems mentioned in thread https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1216479#post1216479 how can we fix this? that depends on what kind of gameplay you want to see? currently theres no reason in competitive play to bring out a tank, it serves no function in any battleplans other than you really want to use one. IF we want to see vehicle combat then obviously we need to change some things. one way to do this would be to make tanks better at taking out tanks then infantry are. this would change it so that the best way to take out a tank would be to use another tank, without a tank you would have to group up a number of infantry and come at the tank in numbers to take it out this is what most tankers refer to when they say you shouldnt be able to solo a tank as infantry they arnt trying to make themselves invulnerable, they are just trying to make it so that they fight tanks for vehicle dominance while not rendering infantry AV obsolete. this change would make infantry AV an AV support role, working WITH the tanks to take out other tanks rather then replacing them as they currently do. this would also change it so that tanks would carry around gunner specfed into AV to give them an edge in tank VS tank wars, creating tank orented squad gameplay rather then the solo warrior gameplay we see now. AVers seem to think tankers want to nerf them so that they become invincable, and thats not true, they want to nerf you so that they have a place in the game, and most importantly they want to play with you, be in squads with you, and co-operate with you instead of you not needing tanks at all. Closing In short tankers who argue for nerfs to av are doing it to create a place for tanks int he game, they are currently replaced by a single infantry wielding AV and its creating boring/ stale/ and unengaging gameplay. what tankers want is a role int he game, and most importantly they want a reason to exsist, as currently they roll in tanks because they want to rather then it being viable. TLDR - tankers just want to love AV players and squad with them so stop hating them before posting answer 2 questions 1:what kind of tank/av/infantry gameplay do you want to see 1:one suggestion on how to achieve that vision of balance invisable swarm footage for the curious skip to 5:50 and watch for left side impact, no trail, no explosive effect just impact physics http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HwiIU6rJCk if you watch a any vehicle youtube footage with invisable swarms in mind you can spot them everywhere. Lower the price. You want to see vehicles all over the field? lower the damn price. BUT IN NO FPS GAME ARE VEHICLES PRIMARY. THEY, BECAUSE IN RL SERVE AS SECONDARY (SUPPORT) With all due respect to you, THERE IS A REASON WHY TANKS ARE NEVER PRIMARY IN ALMOST ALL FPS GAMES.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 854	Posted - 2013.08.24 20:04:00 - [2] - Quote Again cause some on here would rather not hear it, for the simple fact of "DUST IS NOT A FPS! IT DOESNT HAVE TO FOLLOW ITS RULES!" There is a reason why in Almost all FPS games, TANKS ARE NOT A PRIMARY ROLE. THEY ALWAYS FALL UNDER "SUPPORT" You want to see tanks and DS all over the field? LOWER THE PRICE. BUT to those that feel that you need 4 guys to down a tank, come on! So a scrub that never touched a FPS can jump in a tank and wipe the floor with PLAYERS THAT HAVE PLAYED FPS GAMES? 50-2 for a fairy that never touched a FPS game? NO.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 856	Posted - 2013.08.24 22:46:00 - [3] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Surt gods end wrote: Again cause some on here would rather not hear it, for the simple fact of "DUST IS NOT A FPS! IT DOESNT HAVE TO FOLLOW ITS RULES!" There is a reason why in Almost all FPS games, TANKS ARE NOT A PRIMARY ROLE. THEY ALWAYS FALL UNDER "SUPPORT" You want to see tanks and DS all over the field? LOWER THE PRICE. BUT to those that feel that you need 4 guys to down a tank, come on! So a scrub that never touched a FPS can jump in a tank and wipe the floor with PLAYERS THAT HAVE PLAYED FPS GAMES? 50-2 for a fairy that never touched a FPS game? NO. How come people can use RL examples on how the AR should be balanced, but when HAV come into play that goes out the window? Double standard much? At the end of the day, everyone wants their time/ISK/SP invested in their role to mean something. (Most) Infantry have that, why not vehicles? We don't use RL examples for HAV's cause if that was the case, havs drivers would throw more of a fit. lol In RL it takes one guy to take our a tank. two at most. Tanks in RL play support roles. hence why it's that way in many FPS games.
Surt gods end Demon Ronin 856	Posted - 2013.08.24 23:44:00 - [4] - Quote @cosgar Would it be a liability if the price of tanks was dropped? and people have complained about tanks dude. lol That never stopped. I view a tank as a tank. (I'm coming from a FPS POV) what I notice is that some on here view tank as a MMO ROLE "TANK". and I think that has to do with a lot of the conflict. But reducing the price would put more tanks on the field.